"Sitting on council for personal gain should not be allowed"
Hello Mr. Don Juan. I would agree with your proposal. Sitting on council for personal gain should not be allowed. It should be outlawed. When I ran for re-election in 2012 I was severely criticized for accepting campaign contributions from a local land developer/residential home builder. I was asked by my opponent at that time, Ted Noftall, if I would recuse myself from voting on any issues relating to this particular developer. I agreed to recuse myself from any votes and stated so publicly. I did not want to appear to favor anyone.
Conversely, I asked my opponent, Drew Bastian, a retired Port Orange Firefighter, with all the union support he needed, if he would recuse himself from voting on firefighter, union negotiated, contracts. Of course the answer was NO WAY. The union financial support paid for the vast majority of his campaign. Take now Councilman Ford, a retired Port Orange Police Chief, who has now won the endorsement of both the police and fire unions. Will Councilman Ford and Bastian recuse themselves from negotiating and voting on the new police and fire union contracts. I would say NO WAY. How will they vote after both have received heavy support from the unions and have secured two solid votes on their next contract.
Or will Ford, Bastian, and the unions delay the final contract negotiations until after the next city election in August or November and see if another former public safety officer, Scott Stiltner, wins election. Scott Stiltner also has the endorsements of both unions. Of course that will give the unions exactly what they want, 3 seats on the city council. Three votes will get the unions a great new contract costing the tax payers millions. Should we expect Mr. Stiltner to recuse himself from union votes as Mr. Don Juan expects of Mayor Green and Councilman Burnette. I would say Mr. Stiltner would say NO WAY. After all, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Mr. Don Juan, what would you say?
I would hope Ford, Bastian, and Stiltner, would do as I did, and publicly declare that they will recuse themselves from now, and in the future, voting on any union related issues. Don’t hold your breath citizens.
My comments should not be taken as a disparaging comment on the professional policeman and policewomen who protect our city every day. They do a great job under the direction of Chief Monahan. I would say the same thing about our professional firefighters. Under the direction of Chief Pozzo they serve our citizens well. The issue is not with all the public safety employees in Port Orange. Policeman and Firefighters deserve to make a decent living with reasonable benefits. The issue is the unions who are out to control the city council. The unions are the ones who will eventually bankrupt our great city.
So Mr. Don Juan, your proposal has great merit. Outside influence on our council should not be tolerated. The question remains, who will Ford, Bastain, and Stiltner support? The interests of the unions or the interests of 56,000 Port Orange residents.
Bob,
I agree with most of what you say but think it should be taken a little further. A public school teacher, and presumably a member of the teachers union, for example, should not be allowed to sit on a School Board. In fact, anyone who has made a living slurping at any of the public troughs should not be allowed to serve in any governing capacity at all. Governing positions, whether elected or appointed, should be filled be people who have held real jobs. After all, it takes a lot of people with real jobs to pay the salaries of government workers and only the people with real jobs should decide how their money is spent.
Mike Gardner
618 Ruth St
Port Orange, FL 32127
386-527-1959
manddgardner@cfl.rr.com
Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying that anyone that has worked for a government entity should not have the right as an American citizen to participate in their government? Who died and made you god?
I have worked in the private and public sector and paid taxes for the last 52 years and I always considered every job I have ever had to be real. Hell I even paid taxes when I worked for the city.
My wife of 41 years and I have both had to work since we were kids to make ends meet and I sure as hell never got rich working at the city. I used to consider it a honor and privilege to serve my fellow citizens and was proud to do it. After reading this crap it makes me wonder why. I am a tax paying property owning citizen of Port Orange That has lived here and raised a family here for well over 40 years and the last time I checked I have the same rights as everyone else.
Mr. Woodman, thank you for saying that. Any American has the right to run for office. Even though I caution voters to be leery of any candidate carrying influence from outside groups, these candidates still have the right to run for office. The voters make those choices and we have to live with that. It may also be difficult for any elected official or candidate not to have someone or something believe they have influence.
Mr. Gardner. I don’t believe you truly think that former government employees are “slurping off the public trough’s”, as you put it. For example; when I went into education I used to be told constantly, why would you want to be a teacher, they don’t make any money. I used to hear it from my students all the time. I always asked, where did you hear that, the answer, “my parents”. At that time private employment paid much more. The same could be said of city employees, policemen, firefighters, state and federal workers, and the military. We all worked for less money than private industry was paying. Also, private employment, used to pay pensions, health insurance and equal benefits to those in public employment. Then, for the sake of profit, private business started shipping the jobs overseas, cutting benefits and pensions, cutting wages and setting up off shore companies to avoid taxes. Profits for private business soared but the workers in those businesses took huge cuts.
The difference is that private employees did not have a say. You go to work one day and the company tells you we are closing the doors, you’re out of work, we’re moving to China or Mexico. Public government workers, those of us who worked for years receiving lower wages, still had our benefits because the public governments did not close down. Suddenly, public jobs look great. So the pendulum has swung the other way. First private wages were the bad guys, now public wages are the bad guys. By he way, most public benefits across America have been cut back, certainly in Port Orange and Florida. We all worked for less wages for job security, benefits, and working for the public good. All our jobs are necessary for our country. So now, at retirement, we are not “slurping off the public trough”.
That’s the way I see it. By the way, I have not heard for quite a few years how bad public jobs are, but the criticism will continue.
Bob Pohlmann
WOW!! Mister Pohlmann and Mr Woodman both! I was hoping to prod Mr Pohlmann into a response with my comments about teachers but am doubly pleased to get a response from Mr Woodman as well. The fact that we are all three discussing our city government and how it is run bodes well for the future of Port Orange.
While some of what I write is tongue-in-cheek, I do believe that people who are, or have been, government employees should not be allowed to sit on government boards, councils, etc that determine how government funds are spent. While public employees might refer to themselves as City of Port Orange Public Utilities workers or Volusia County School teachers, for example, and “public servants” at the same time, both are misnomers. Cities, counties, police departments, etc do not employ people, taxpayers employ people and government entities are set up only as legal devices to do their will. “Public servants” (employees) should be sitting down with the taxpayers (employers) and deciding how much their “service” is worth. Instead, we have a situation where the taxpayers interests are supposedly represented by a different group of “public servants” whose own interests are often closer to the first group of “public servants” than to the taxpayers.
Consider our fine City of Port Orange. In the upcoming contract negotiations between the City and the Police, Fire, and General Employee Unions, the interests of the taxpayer will ultimately be determined by a City Council that includes 1) an employee of a government-supported hospital, 2) a retired fireman, and 3) a retired policeman who now works for a government-funded university. I’m getting all warm and fuzzy thinking about how well my interests as a taxpayer will be represented here. But not to worry you say–before Council even sees the agreements my interests will be represented by the crack negotiating team of Kisela, Shannon, Steinbach and a high-priced lawyer who apparently writes contracts with more holes than swiss cheese. Of course the three city negotiators will get the same raise that they work out with the unions and now, NOW, that warm and fuzzy is starting to build to where I can hardly stand it! Big raises make for happy “public servants,” happy unions, happy City management and happy Council (because they continue to get the support of the unions and the “public servants” that helped elect them in the first place).
Give me the same amount of money the City spends on its own personnel and let me hire a negotiator from the private sector any day.
By the way guys, I always try to include my address, etc when I write anything for public consumption so stop by if you’re in the neighborhood and I’ll make us a cup of coffee.
Mike Gardner
618 Ruth St
Port Orange, FL 32127
386-527-1959
manddgardner@cfl.rr.com
Rick yours any every other citizen’s right to participate in our government exists independent of where that person has worked or indeed if he or she has ever worked.
With that said it is important, as a point of logic if nothing else, to recognize that the public sector operates on those fees and taxes that are first paid by the private sector. AND yes I realize that government employees pay taxes on their income and property also.
That being the case it is most disheartening for business owners to bring issues of inequity to our Council and receive lip service at best, BECAUSE councilman who have worked in the public sector their entire careers have no natural affinity as to what it takes to operate the small businesses that we are told are the backbone of our nation’s economy.
Small busines receiving a fair adjudication of their issues from a Council compromised of public sector employees have a similar chance of success as the average husband receiving same from his mother-in-law.
I have employed individuals for just about every year of the last 37 and never once have I been successful enough to pay the benefits enjoyed by public sector employees, AND in that I am not alone as average private sector remuneration over any chosen demographics is but half of the public sector. In Port Orange as per Volusia County statistics the relevant numbers are $40,000 and $80,000. AND YES I realize that averages are just that, AND THAT that mid range and lower end City employees likely compare comparably with the private sector.
Governments in Volusia county are the largest spenders, the largest employers and they are fast becoming an irresistible magnet to which our best and brightest are being drawn, and why wouldn’t they be with average remuneration twice that of the private sector. That combination is creating a self fulfilling prophesy for yet bigger government, higher taxes, greater disparity, AND A neutered business community that finds its members increasingly dependent on government for its sales.
If you think that not the case tell me about all the objections the PO/SD COC have brought to either City Council in recent years including reference number one to the 25% property tax increase resulting from Uncle Joe’s mismanagement in his City last year.
Small business would do well to take a page out of the public safety playbook and start getting some ringers of their own on our City Council.
Ted you said you have employed workers for 37 years and have not been successful enough to pay them the benefits and salary of public employees. I thought you ran a moving and storage business and employed mainly truck drivers and moving men. Do you employ, engineers, architects, attorneys, police officers, fire men, paramedics, emt’s, state certified treatment plant operators, instrument technicians, lab technicians, network administrators, gis technicians, accountants, plant managers, division superintendents, etc. These are all public employees and are all careers. Are you suggesting that these people, some having 20, 30, or more years invested in career public service should receive similar pay and benefits that one of your truck drivers or laborers receive?
By the way of all the employees that have worked for you over the past 37 years what is the average length of service that they stay employed with you? How many have worked for you all their careers if you want to call it that and retired with a decent retirement? I think your comparisons of public and private sector employment is like comparing apples with oranges, and is an example of a lack of critical thinking in this area on your part.
The political systems, I guess in any nation, are full of people who owe favors to their supporters, those they have worked for in the past, and from time to time we suspect they give special attention to issues involving the private business sector which they may have an opportunity to work for in the future.
I guess it is the nature of humanity, that friendships and financial allegiances will always be suspect when elected officials turn their attention to business matters. The only thing I can say is that we should keep up our scrutiny of elected and governmental officials who have a history of business ties
with certain groups. I think that is true for elected retired fire department people, elected retired police department people, and elected officials who have been active in the construction field. Bush and the oil family, and Clinton with the girls. Watch them! Never let any one say you should not be skeptical and suspicious. If not you, who will watch out for their integrity, the oil business? The female reporter who said she would gladly service Bill?
Bob Phohlmann, this is the first that I hear that you had stated you would recluse yourself from any issues which come before you on the city council, concerning those developers who helped finance your run for re electon to city council. I say good for you, and you know that if you had won I would be looking for you to keep your word.
To Mr. Gardner I comment that I did not understand your tongue and cheek proposition that government workers should not be allowed to run for political seats. Perhaps you should restate and write, “I am sorry, I really did not mean what I wrote”. It is my thoughts that governmental workers in this generation, not mine, are paid well with good benefits. But I also have thoughts that some private interests have made a good buck by cozying up to governmental agencies. I think about those diabolical
devices of CRAs.
But- I could be wrong. I never was a business man, only a civil servant.
— hank
@ Mike, never forget also that the fix is in, And has been if not from the secret meeting between the Manager and all of Council, THEN since the 5 secret meetings between the Manager and each council member alone. What was said was undoubtedly tempered by political consideration. Drew was elected to represent public safety workers well, and no one has ever said otherwise, Bob wants to be re-elected this time round and Don wants to be elected mayor the next. Get out your wallets Mr and Mrs Taxpayer.
@ Yoda, Sounds like to justify the 2 to1 remuneration advantage government workers enjoy over non-government workers in Volusia county you are implying that everyone working for the City are either engineers, architects, attorneys, police officers, fire men, paramedics, emt’s, state certified treatment plant operators, instrument technicians, lab technicians, network administrators, gis technicians, accountants, plant managers, division superintendents, AND have been there for 20 or 30 years. That is not the case.
Snips and snipes of an anecdotal nature are never going to prove much less resolve anything. What is needed is an honest UN-biased comparison of government remuneration with comparable private sector positions in the area.
I would support and abide by the results of such a comparative study. Would you ??
AND BEFORE you answer remember that remuneration in the private sector is market driven and will be until you and I and everyone else start patronizing those establishments with the highest prices in town.
Ted, you make a good point and if the city council and city manager honored their contractual obligation to conduct a periodic salary survey instead of cutting ass kissers special deals and convoluting the workforce infrastructure perhaps we would be able to identify and reward legitimate talent and value. If a broad banding compensation system that rewarded legitimate value that was tied to the free market and the institutional knowledge needs of the organization was instituted tax payer dollars would be allocated to support workforce infrastructure that would return value. There would have to be institutional integrity and a modicum for promoting and rewarding long term competent employees that are institutional stakeholders instead of importing an FCCMA Life Saver that imports FCCMA MIT retreads that supplant legitimate stakeholders to pad their retirement and support their Life Saver’s dog and pony show. When will the bullshit stop?
From what I was told when labor negotiations are to be discussed the Florida Sunshine laws allows the City Council and City Manager to meet privately as a group. So what is all this bullshit were the manager setup five separate meetings were he would meet with each councilman separately 1 on 1.
Was this another one of his schemes were he could divide and conquer them. This guy is really making the council look like a bunch of idiots. We will now have another public council meeting were nothing of substance will be discussed – just a quick vote.