I have no earthly idea as to what you are referring by “ prohibited discrimination “

to: City Attorney
from: Ted Noftall.
shutUp2Thank you Margaret,
Perhaps a meeting is in order because  I have no earthly idea as to what you are referring by  “ prohibited discrimination “
Nor do I understand your comment  (“ To the extent that you are acting on your own accord and not as a member of the Audit and Budget Advisory Board, then your actions are beyond the scope of your authority as a Board Member “)   unless it contains a typo,
BECAUSE to my knowledge if a person is operating on their own accord, as your supposition proffers, THEN  their  protected 1stAmendment speech is neither limited nor extended by any authority from any membership on any Board.
I will be available for that meeting starting the week of August  4th  2014
In the mean time do you think we could get some meaningful disclosure regarding the conjectured $1,050,000 payment.
Maybe you could start checking to see if the City was paid in fill dirt that it never received ???
Ted Noftall

—–Original Message—–
From: Roberts, Margaret [mailto:mroberts@port-orange.org]
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:34 AM
To: Ted Noftall; ‘nelan’; Hank Springer; City Council; Steinebach, Donna; Lewis, Shannon
Cc: Kisela, Greg
Subject: RE: The $1,050,000 payment should not be a matter of conjecture Mr Mayor.
Importance: High
Mr. Noftall,
The City of Port Orange has a policy of not tolerating prohibited discrimination.   On behalf of the City Council, I am advising you that you are a member of the Audit and Budget Advisory Board and that you are required to adhere to the policies of the City pertaining to prohibited discrimination.  To the extent that you are acting on your own accord and not as a member of the Audit and Budget Advisory Board, then your actions are beyond the scope of your authority as a Board Member and a City defense of your conduct is compromised.   Please conduct yourself accordingly.  If you have any questions regarding this email, I will schedule an opportunity for you to discuss it with the city manager.  Thank you.
Margaret T. Roberts
City Attorney/
City of Port Orange, Florida
Phone 386 506-5525/
Fax 386 506-5530

From: Ted Noftall [mailto:Ted@TedNoftall.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:38 PM
To: ‘nelan’; Hank Springer
Cc: gkisela@port-orange.org; Margaret Roberts
Subject: The $1,050,000 payment should not be a matter of conjecture Mr Mayor.
The first contract with Halifax Paving was for  hauling fill from the first retention that had been excavated by another contractor, AND Halifax was to pay the City  $ 1,050,000  (  500,000 cu yds  @ 2.10  per yd. ) This contract spanned Jan 2000 thru  May 2005
Whether that  $1,050,000 was  paid should not be a matter of conjecture as the Mayor proffered at the Thursday night special meeting.  Rather this matter needs to be answered  through a simple forensic audit request to our current audit firm.
IF  THIS   $1,050,000 was  paid prior to  change order  # 1 in 2005 which was the  illegal maneuver Green and the former manager used to circumvent competitive bidding requirements, AND flip a simple hauling contract from the 1st lake into a full blown excavation contract for 2nd lake,   THAT MEANS   the current $ 1,050,000 referenced at the Thursday special meeting   is a whole new  $1,050,000  that coincidently  just so happens to  equal the original  $1,050,000 right to the penny.
FOR  THAT  TO BE THE CASE,  after all the change order irradiations surrounding the 2nd lake construction including missing fill dirt,   increased depth,    raised berms,  and penalties for tardy work at the lake itself and at the  Corraci fields,    THIS  IS ONE HELL OF A BIG COINCIDENCE.
AND WHOSE  assurance  would the Mayor have us believe  that everything is on the up and up with this  15 year taxpayer screwing.   WHY WE HAVE  peg-leg  from Utilities who misplaced  100 dump truck loads from the Ruth Street pond earlier this year and who only last year was helping himself to ill gotten   administration time hand over fist,    AND WHO  owes his job after those debacles to none other than the wizard behind the curtain  Mayor Green.
It would appear from this early vantage of  what  most certainly will be investigated at some point,  that this series of improprieties  more than anything else is the reason for the rapid departure of the Manager, Finance Director and Comptroller.  This is the first instance of where we have more than incompetence at play.   We are talking well in excess  of a million cu yds of fill dirt  valued in excess of $3 million dollars  that no one is in a hurry to provide an accounting for.   I wonder why ??
Ted Noftall

22 thoughts on “I have no earthly idea as to what you are referring by “ prohibited discrimination “

  • July 21, 2014 at 5:36 pm

    Did you give up your constitutional rights when you joined the ABAB?

  • July 21, 2014 at 7:03 pm

    I believe peg leg was found to be offensive

  • July 21, 2014 at 8:29 pm

    I think you still have the freedom of speach, but remember this. If you own your own bussiness and one of your employees belittles you and talks bad about you, he has the freedom of speech, but you also have the right to fire him. I dont think for a minute you would, ever let one of your employees speek to you as you do of city employee’s. Do your emploee’s have the right to say horrible things about you without proof? Can your employee’s bad mouth you to the press and online?? Do you give up there free speech???? Just food for thought, i could be totally wrong, maybe you are very open minded and if someone you employ spends countless hours badmouthing you and your policies you might be totally ok with that. And i know what your going to say, the city doesnt pay me i am not employed, i will argue your part of a board, so your employed by the citizens. If enough citizens agreed with you, you would have been elected to council. I am not trying to change what you want as far as open government, its just you try and bullie everyone. I truely think you have good intentions but you have no clue on how to do it in a consructive manor. Please let me know if i am wrong, and that you let your employees openly bad mouth you in front of other people and the news.

    • July 21, 2014 at 10:14 pm

      You need spell check!

  • July 21, 2014 at 10:40 pm

    Ron, Nancy and all others,
    The City of Port Orange has been losing millions and millions of dollars! Don’t you care and want to know where it is? Should we be quiet and let it go on and on? This is not just 1 time but many times and 2 CM in charge. What do you suggest we do? Any ideas? What are YOU doing to help? Thank you for people being involved and caring what is happening in this city. I hope the council/ mayor will really think about what has been going on and still is! Do the right things for Port Orange citizens, not what is on your current agenda. If we get transparency and accountability in our government, the town will flourish not go down the drain like we are now. We need to get this under control. And it takes a dedicated council/mayor, city employees and citizens to do their part to improve our city financially.

  • July 22, 2014 at 11:21 am

    I think Noftall was wrong to describe a city employee as he did in his editorial.
    I urge all who want reform and transparency not to focus attention on city employees unless they have hard fact for criticism. The foremost primary target of all our concerns should be city administration, city directors and supervisors, the mayor and the city council.
    In regards to city employees I offer my opinion. I would speculate that most city employees are good workers trying to do a decent job in a bad environment caused by lack of proper administration and supervisory control. I feel for the good workers whom city administration is now trying to use as expendable pawns in its resistance to open transparency and reform.
    There are probably bad workers as there are in any organization and that is primarily the responsibility of administration and supervisors, who apparently have mostly failed in these duties.
    I am getting concerned about the number of anonymous blogs getting published. The following is what I think is dangerous about anonymous blogs.
    1. Anonymous blogs can produce false perspectives, initiating bad reasoning or vindictive comments, aimed at making them seem to be coming from one side or another of the arguments. In essence, a damaging agitator appearing in the ranks of one side, but really aligned to the other side.
    2. Anonymous comments should only be allowed by the editor when they pertain to issues. I suggest that the editor delete from an anonymous comment any statements that do not pertain to the issues.
    3. Anonymous comments unless edited and controlled tend to become emotional and vindictive and lends no value to the issues which need to be discussed.
    4. Vindictive and emotional comments in my mind can be published by a web site, if the commentator is willing to give his true identity. I imagine it would be the responsibility of the editor to check on the true identity of the writer who is named as author. The trend of emotionality and vindictiveness in my opinion, no matter how loathsome they may be, is part of an ongoing issue and has some merit in being published as indication of how hot feelings are getting on an issue. If the named author of an ad hominem attack is guilty of liable civil action I think the named author is responsible for the civil liability and not the blog publisher as long as the editor/publisher has checked the identity of the named author.
    5. My policy as an editor/publisher would be to post anonymous comments, but delete ad hominem attacks which go beyond the pale of addressing issues. You will notice that I call the mayor, the construction mayor. This is a fact but does infer that his interests are primarily construction in the city. And, of course, I own up with my name as author.
    6. My policy as an editor/publisher would in most cases be not to publish a direct inappropriate ad hominem attack even if the author is named. I would have consideration to publish the general gist of an ad hominem attack, without naming the author and the possible victim of such attack, only to provide a trend of opinions and mood to the public about ongoing issues.
    7. If any of the foregoing does not sound reasonable to you, let me know. Hank springer poimages@outlook.com 386 852 3178

  • July 22, 2014 at 2:59 pm

    At present the person referred to as peg leg has been given that nick name by himself and fellow employees due to recent knee surgery. He is part of the puppet administration. he was the project manager on the job when the dirt from the Ruth street drainage project was misplaced. Being called peg leg is one of the nicest things I have ever heard him called if you know what I mean. I agree that a person can get their point across without using too much inflammatory language but we all realize that a bunch of us are quite angry and frustrated with our government and management. Lets all try to be kinder and gentler bloggers.

  • July 22, 2014 at 8:13 pm

    Hello Everyone. There was a time, not too long ago, that many of the bloggers on this site were very vindictive in their criticism of the mayor, the city manager, department heads, and some other employees. Comments were made by people without any concrete evidence. Most of the bloggers on here would not have enjoyed having themselves cut up by anonymous people. No one, not you or me, would want to be spoken about in that manner. Accusations were made that simply were not true. Some bloggers thought they were cute and funny in their criticism but in reality they were crude and very hurtful with some of their comments. Quite frankly, what shocked me the most when I was on council, was the disrespect that was shown me by some. It is probably the one thing that soured me on serving and why I quickly recovered after I lost. I figured, who needs that. To me it boils down to respect for each other. I have been advocating for a more civil approach on discourse for months. Sometimes I thought, why bother. I too, like Hank and some others, prefer someone to attach their name to their comments. I guess it’s easier to be crude when you don’t give a name. I will admit that I shot back at times too. Hey, I’m not perfect either.
    A week or two ago I read that someone called Sonya a “lazy voter”. Why does it matter how many times she has voted in past elections. At least she stepped up to the plate, threw her name in the ring, and decided to run for council to try to help the city. That is her right. Why do some think she is controlled by the mayor? I was accused of that also but if you look at my record, I voted opposite the mayor many times. Sonya will not agree with the mayor on many occasions if she is elected either. Because Councilman Ford votes the same way as the mayor does that mean the mayor controls him? Everyone is an independent thinker. So support your candidates and get out and vote.
    There are many issues that the citizen activists have brought to light. Good for them. They have a right to ask questions at any time and have played a critical role on expecting transparency. Yesterday Hank, on his web site, listed many things that have gone wrong in Port Orange. No one can argue with his list. These need to be fixed ASAP. Let’s work to fix these errors.
    Some quick suggestions. The Finance Dept. is obviously very critical to our local government. They need help badly. They need more personnel in that dept. so hire some people to better monitor revenues and expenditures. Not collecting revenue streams is completely unacceptable. Look to the budget and see where cuts can be made in other areas to better support finance. The ad valorem tax rate should be kept under 5 mils. Hire a city manager with a background in finance, even if you go to the private sector. At the state and federal level, business leaders from the private sector are hired or appointed to lead governmental agencies. Why not in Port Orange? Support the new manager and his dept. heads and give them time to correct past mistakes. Hank’s list would be a good place to start. Positive help and suggestions from citizens is helpful.
    Finally, I have seen some very good blogs on this web site. At times, recently, I see the comments less vindictive. That’s a good sign. If there is evidence of any illegalities bring it forward, don’t just think there is. Be specific on what could be done to make things better. Ask questions, question authority, but be respectful. Embarrassing mistakes have been made over the last four years. I do not think they were intentional but some dropped the ball big time. Better days are ahead, I hope.
    Bob Pohlmann

    • July 22, 2014 at 8:21 pm

      Well Bob, a prime example was at tonight’s meeting. They continued to push the new accounting manager position through. This despite the fact that there is no finance director nor comptroller in place. Is this newly created position really necessary ? Was it thought out well ?
      The job description states a BA degree AND five years experience as a CPA ? Such a candidate would apply for the comptroller position I would believe.
      And shouldn’t the new Finance Director have a say in hiring for this position or if it is really needed ? Appears the Council has acted hastily once again without thought or a future vision.

      • July 24, 2014 at 8:53 pm

        It is just more of the usual, if you continually make mistakes and cry that you are short staffed you get additional help. Most in the city like to complain about the fire department, if they only knew that there are now three people doing the work that was once done by ten maybe they would get some help. You would be amazed if you knew what the office assistant does for the fire department, talk about over worked and underpaid. This lady does WAY above and beyond what you would consider her job. Does she even get a thank you? NO. And yet the job gets done and done well.

    • July 23, 2014 at 12:42 pm

      I worked for the city for 36 years at utilities. I know the way things work on the inside. I have posted on here several times pointing out the causes and solutions to many problems within the utilities department I have gone into detail about problems and solutions at the reclaimed lakes and our meter problems. I have even written about piggybacking and change orders to help give understanding to the processes when they were questioned on this site. I was trying to be positive and informative in writing those posts, hoping that it would answer some questions and greater inform some of our bloggers and maybe some city officials. My posts resulted in personal slanderous attacks on myself by a person or persons identifying themselves as city employees but not using there real names. This would make one think that some people may still have something to hide. I know exactly what the problems are at utilities and how to fix them but I don’t think anyone is interested in hearing them. We have major problems with management in Utilities, finance and city hall. I’ll address utilities. We currently have two people that I can’t name. If I did they would probably be fired. They could fix the department and move it ahead greatly. My positive solution would be to promote them and empower them with full support from management and council. I would very much like to work with council and management to help with positive solutions to our problems. I think with 41 years in the utilities Biz that I could bring a lot to the table. I live here and I want to help. There are some really good employees in utilities if allowed to speak freely that could contribute greatly but their voices are suppressed. Any suggestions?

      • July 23, 2014 at 5:27 pm

        Mr. Woodman you bring up good points and ideas that bounce off what I have been thinking. And if the mayor will meet with me, I will bounce them off of him.
        How did it happen that the Mayor and city manager did not embrace the help of Ted Noftall and others regarding getting reform and control of city operations? If the two sides could have worked together I think the climate would have been different today.
        I am sorry to repeat my experience, but I think it is useful to remember when we wonder how we came to such an hostile climate. I write this not in the mood that it is all about me, but with the perception of a basic flaw of some on city council.
        I think it was perhaps in 2008, but definitely was in a year that Councilman Steindoerfer held that position. I wrote an e mail to the city council deploring the lack of transparency I was witnessing in city council meetings. I never published that e mail, but it was negatively speculative and inferred that someway they were making decisions behind closed doors and not explaining their decisions to the public when they voted on issues. I accused them of producing at city council meetings a rehearsed operetta. I told them I was going to start asking some hard hitting blunt questions. At the next city council meeting, Steindoerfer said that he was not going to answer any questions put forth by me, and Mayor Green said that he had some words for me but could not say them in public,
        And so, we are where we are today, because of many mistakes, not by citizens, but by people on the city council. I have heard that Mayor Allen Green refuses to meet with Ted Noftall except to tolerate Ted’s opinions when he appears before the city council. The perception I have is that only the influential have open access to Mayor Green and those who do conduct themsleves as team players on his team are excluded from “we are family” inside discussions.
        It should be pointed out, that some time after Green’s and Steindoerfer’s expressing of disdain for my observations, council man Bob Pholmann did come to me and we discussed for 2 hours my concerns and he answered many of my questions.
        Not all of the mistakes in this hostile environment are made by the activists or bloggers. I see some which further alienate city hall supporters and city hall haters, but in my opinion those mistakes are very small compared to the significant mistakes made by city council in responding to the public, the concerned citizens, and the negative findings about city operations that keep coming up, on and on and on. Now there seems to be a misplaced wish to have all the negative comments and opinions stop, instead of a hope and prayer that more negative findings will not be revealed. You can tell me that I am wrong, but I really suspect that city hall supporters know that more and more negative findings will be coming out, and the only defense they have to the comfortable world they have been use to is to decry the activists. This response to a deficient city administration really scares me. It is the beginning of the end when people start supporting unnecessary failures.

        • July 23, 2014 at 7:20 pm

          Sir, many times i have read that you think its bad for anonymous people to post because they are negitive. Is it fair that named people get to call people names? You never call out named people for being hateful and belittling. In my opinion you never call out the named bloggers who are hatefull and name calling and sometimes in my opinion belittleing to so many people because they share some of your ideas. I read so many times about transparency, but it seems to me a small group of bloggers will look the other way when horrible comments are made, this is just my opinion sir.

          • July 24, 2014 at 7:15 pm

            To Concerned citizen I appreciate your honest, frank thoughts and opinion and am so glad you are willing to put them forth in a public forum, rather than sitting in a back room decrying some people as not team players.
            I told Pat Nelan recently, Pat being the editor/publisher of this blog we are commenting in, that I have practically no political comments on my blog web site, probably because I, unlike Pat, usually put my two cents in following comments by my readers. That may very well turn them off.
            I have turned down one or two e mail to me asking for them to be posted on my web site, because I thought they did not have enough issue meat in them and too much personality attacking.
            I sent one e mail back to a commentator and asked him to re do his comments without the personal attacks.
            I recently posted that I had seriously deliberated over posting a three word phrase that Ted Noftall pinned on Greg Kisela. I posted my reasoning in letting the words be posted.
            Most of the personality attacks have appeared on this blog we are now in. Pat had e mailed me and asked me my opinion about allowing such personality attacks be posted. I pretty much told him that if they attack a public figure, it was up to him to go the way he felt.
            I have made one or two comments on this blog urging readers to restrain themselves, cool the rhetoric down and stick to the issues.
            Recently, not withstanding my opinion given to Pat a month or so again, I have changed my mind about anonymous postings and named author postings. I changed my mind because I was getting uneasy about believing who were sending these anonymous opinions. To me, some were clearly stupid and idiotic. I am nervous that an agitator can appear in the ranks of one side of the issues, but really be aligned to the other side. And, I am uneasy about a perspective of how many citizens are really supporting an issue, when in reality the anonymous authors may only be a few.
            And so, in another blog comment I laid out my idea about how an editor should treat anonymous comments and ad hominem attacks.
            In the early days of this nation, essays would be published on pamphlets and distributed with anonymous names, attacking the federal government. Such pamphlets were solitary or few. But now with the internet, anonymous writers can put forth hundreds of opinions which could only be the true opinion of one person, or a few.
            And so, with the multitude of comments, I think we should revisit guidelines on posting anonymous comments.
            I am sorry if I have not addressed all postings which we may both agree about not being allowed to have been posted, but up to recently I have not read all the postings on this web site. I really prefer to listen and report the incidents on the police radio scanner (and there are people who object to me doing that) and tending to the flowers on my patio, but the political scene does catch my attention, and sometimes puts me in the mood to get involved. And then, if and when things calm down, I do not come to this web site for a while.
            However, right now, I am in the mood to take issue with blogs which I think go beyond the pale. But since there is no hard fast rules about blogging that you and I have to abide by, we might disagree on what is permissible and not permissible. From my view point I see that it is mostly left up to the policy of the editor/publisher.
            If you want to, point out what I have not commented on which you think I should have. And I will give you my opinion, albeit late.
            Thanks for the chance to discuss these things out in the open. I am delighted that humanity has this wonderful technology at its disposal and I think we should take advantage of it before it is taken away from us.’
            — hank springer

  • July 22, 2014 at 9:05 pm

    You are correct Concerned Citizen. This position has not been thought out at all. It was conceived as a work around well understood problems with the recently resigned Comptroller,
    AND now that the Comptroller has resigned the City should be focused of what should be demanded in terms of qualifications and experience for a new CFO and new Comptroller.
    INSTEAD in typical grow government fashion we are going to devote important time on a fluff position whose need has not been demonstrated.

    • July 22, 2014 at 9:17 pm

      Ted ?? Do you really exist as a real person and Port Orange resident ?
      If one saw tonight’s meeting, a citizen reports you do not exist ?

  • July 22, 2014 at 9:34 pm

    I apologize for the distraction I have apparently caused in telling Margaret that I had “no earthly idea as to what you are referring by “ prohibited discrimination “
    I should have made clear that ‘Prohibited Discrimination” requires a recognized disability and I doubted that recovering nicely from a taxpayer funded surgery qualifies as such.

    • July 23, 2014 at 5:48 pm

      So its ok to call people names sometimes but not other times????

    • July 23, 2014 at 6:13 pm

      If it wasnt tax payer funded surgery you would not called someone a name????

    • July 23, 2014 at 7:55 pm

      Sir i find it disturbing that you find it ok to belittle people so much. I find it odd that you like to make rude comments about so many people. In my opinion its like your trying to make changes by bullying people who are not allowed to make comments back. If a city worker talked to you the way you talk about them you would want them fired, just my opionion sir.

  • July 24, 2014 at 7:22 pm

    Tired and concerned I think your thoughts have merit. Some of the comments that show so much emotion and hatred takes away from the valid points of the commentator’s argument. If you and I call out as an issu, name calling which need not be posted, I think we might change the tone of arguments and rhetoric to a more productive format of discussing issues.
    I may have not done so in the past, but I now see the need to criticize some ad hominem attacks in the comments.


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